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Official VDS Wish List
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jules
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serge wrote:
i would like the version numbers able to cope with double digits


They can, unless I misunderstand the question.

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jules
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skit3000 wrote:
You mean making a new interpreter for VDS with a language which is compilable in almost every OS, like C or Java? If so, I've once made an interpreter for a self-designed language with Visual Basic, which I think is easy to convert into any other programming language. The only think left after that, is adding all functions and commands to it... Smile

Julian, what do you think about Prakash' idea? Smile


I think the first problem is that DialogScript is a proprietary language, owned by CR, so there would be legal issues involved even with writing a compiler for it. It would not be like writing a compiler for C or Pascal, say, whose definitions are in the public domain. Second, I think you underestimate the work involved. More than one man-year's worth of effort has taken to get VDS where it is today, and so you should expect a similar amount of work to re-implement VDS in something else, especially if you hit problems trying to achieve something that's easy in Windows but not directly supported by the target platform.

If you were really going to try this then Java is really the best option. VB is not portable outside of Windows. With C or C++ you would have a language that is portable but for dialog elements you would have to support the native GUI (which would tie you to that platform) or use windowing libraries for each platform (as Delphi/Kylix does for Linux.) Only Java has a set of GUI elements that is portable across platforms (but they don't have all the fancy features that you are constantly clamoring to use under Windows.)

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Mac
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jules wrote:
I think the first problem is that DialogScript is a proprietary language, owned by CR, so there would be legal issues involved even with writing a compiler for it. It would not be like writing a compiler for C or Pascal, say, whose definitions are in the public domain.


Sorry, but this is absolutely NOT true (I personally had an
attorney check into this). No "language" (programming or
otherwise) can be legally proprietary in the U.S.

Anyway, there are few (if any) words used in the VDS
language that are not also found in other programming
languages (lol, or a dictionary). Wink

Cheers, Mac Smile

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jules
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not a lawyer, nor can I afford their fees to get an opinion on this, but I think you are wrong about this. Sun took Microsoft to court over its implementation of Java and won. I think anyone would be ill advised to attempt making a clone of VDS because the issue is not whether or not you believe you are trespassing on anyone's copyright work or not, but whether you can afford to go to court if necessary to prove that you aren't.
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Mac
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jules wrote:
I am not a lawyer, nor can I afford their fees to get an opinion on this, but I think you are wrong about this. Sun took Microsoft to court over its implementation of Java and won. I think anyone would be ill advised to attempt making a clone of VDS because the issue is not whether or not you believe you are trespassing on anyone's copyright work or not, but whether you can afford to go to court if necessary to prove that you aren't.


We're talking apples and oranges here. Java was unique in its abilities, VDS is not. Anything VDS does can already be done in other languages. Wink

I am no lawyer either - just happen to have a friend who is.

Cheers, Mac Smile

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Free download (30k dll size) at:
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Last edited by Mac on Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FreezingFire
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please don't shoot down our ideas all of the time. We might as well all leave,
make a different programming language and be happy, if we're not even
allowed to extend the abilities of the current one.

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jules
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, I'm operating in the real world here and not all of the suggestions that are made are possible to be implemented due to technical considerations of the way VDS works, or else limitations on time and money that can be spent on development.

I thought we were all adults here and people would appreciate hearing my viewpoint of why I don't think some suggestions are really practical, but if people are going to throw their toys out of the pram and sulk if they don't get what they want I'll stop wasting my time responding.

I've already said that some suggestions have already been implemented or being worked on, and I hope to get around to others. So it's utter nonsense to suggest I'm "shooting down all of our ideas."

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Boo
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on, guys! (The following cliche pops into mind: "Why can't we all just get along?") Cool

I see both sides--I really do. However, let's all be thankful for what we have at the moment. I came across VDS way back in 1997, and the language has literally changed my life. (Yes, I am an "on again, off again" programmer, but VDS has always been there for me.)

Obviously, there will be a lot of time and work necessary to implement VDS within other operating systems. Perhaps the language will move in that direction, but perhaps it will not. Regardless, let's enjoy the power of what we have NOW. Like many things, VDS is something that MAY or MAY NOT be around "forever."

Hell, in a few years, video and DVD rentals will be a thing of the past. Wink

Somehow, I think VDS will be around for awhile... Personally, I am quite appreciative of the features that have been added over the years, and of the features that are upcoming. I know you are, too.

Cheers,

- Boo
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FreezingFire
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if I sounded a little harsh in my past post Jules. I was having a bad
day, I was extremely tired, and so I was irritable.

But anyway I can see both sides too. I am also very appreciative of all
the features added, many of which are ones we requested.

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jrmarquart
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to add my appreciation also for all of the work Jules has done with Visual DialogScript. As I am not a programmer by trade Visual DialogScript has allowed me to create programs that otherwise would have been impossible for me to create in another language (C++, Delphi) due to the level of difficulty and complexity involved. My biggest hope for Visual DialogScript is that it will be supported in newer OS's in the years to come.
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Serge
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd like to add my appreciation also for all of the work Jules has done with Visual DialogScript.


me 2 Smile

serge

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vdsalchemist
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac wrote:
jules wrote:
I am not a lawyer, nor can I afford their fees to get an opinion on this, but I think you are wrong about this. Sun took Microsoft to court over its implementation of Java and won. I think anyone would be ill advised to attempt making a clone of VDS because the issue is not whether or not you believe you are trespassing on anyone's copyright work or not, but whether you can afford to go to court if necessary to prove that you aren't.


We're talking apples and oranges here. Java was unique in its abilities, VDS is not. Anything VDS does can already be done in other languages. Wink

I am no lawyer either - just happen to have a friend who is.

Cheers, Mac Smile


IMHO Exclamation
The point is not so much rather it is legal or not. I think this is also a ethical issue. Is it ethical to take someone's work and reproduce it without asking?
Copyright laws in the US Hmmm...
Let's see, if I took any best selling novel off the shelf and reproduced it. Would this be infringing on the copyright holders rights to their work? Naturally if you ask a lawyer they would probaly say yes.
Well your argument is saying since the words being used in the book/language are all found in the dictionary then no copyright law should be broken, correct? I disagree with this statement. Actually you are breaking copyright law's because eventhough the output would be the same how you arrive to that output may be different, it's this difference that sets a computer language apart from the others. The computer languages C, C++, Basic, Pascal, Perl, Python, Java, and many others all have copyright's because they all have different methods to the same problem "computer/human communication". If you look closely to the fine print on any compiler based on these languages they all give copyright to the original copyright holders of the language. They all have a statement like "This compiler system is based in part or in whole on the programming language such n such" and will usually show the original developer or companies copyright. Now since they place that copyright information in their documentation does it now make it legal to do this. No, I don't think so. It is still not legal unless the new language got the written permission of the original copyright holder. In the US it is understood that the base computer languages have been released to the Public by the original copyright holders. Some of them was released with agreements that the original copyright's are displayed if you build a work based on this language while others don't come with any limitations at all. You have to read the license agreements very closely before clicking the ok button Wink otherwise you too could be breaking copyright laws and/or trademark laws. A good website for information on this subject and other issues pertaining to the Law and electronics can be found at the following website http://www.eff.org/ also here is a very simple but effective website that may be a bit more clear to the non-lawyer types like myself http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

I think both of these websites go along with what I have written here. The issue of copyright is both legal and an ethical issue and both are protected by the law and should be respected by everyone.

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Mac
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey dragonsphere,

dragonsphere wrote:

Let's see, if I took any best selling novel off the shelf and reproduced it. Would this be infringing on the copyright holders rights to their work?


Even though you can write a copyrighted book in English (or German, French, etc.), you cannot copyright the "language" it was written in.

Obviously you can't decompile or reverse engineer an existing compiler, but using the same words as commands to achieve the same results is perfectly permissible. After all, there's only so many ways to say "create a window".

By your reasoning, VDS itself would be in violation for using the words "goto", "if/else/end", etc. since all these (and many more VDS keywords) were used by other languages long before VDS (and they achieve the same results in VDS as the others). I'm guessing ya don't think this is "unethical" though... Wink

Cheers, Mac Smile

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Free download (30k dll size) at:
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PGWARE
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theres a slight difference Mac. Taking a langauge and replicating each and every command, and its methods of processing that code is copying a protected work.

Taking similar 'words' from other languages is not the same as replicating a compiler EXACTLY and then releasing it as your own work or without prior permission. There are not just a few words here being replicated (to have a cross compiler) but the entire syntax, methods and procedures. Also it would not be a mere coincidence of similar names, methods etc; but using VDS as the base to replicate off of and duplicate the software.

It's just like they say in college; taking sentences out of a book, and just changing a few of those words is still considered copyright infringement without giving citation - if the author of the book has given permission for even doing that sort of copying. The original author's work/ideas are protected; I can't simply take them and use them as my own without first having the authors permission and giving citation.

This may fall under Copyright laws but I would look also at PATENTS and see if any of the syntax, methods etc have patents on them as well. I'm pretty sure there are no trademarks on any of the syntax.

Before any cross compiler goes into development I'd suggest contacting SADE/CR first and getting written permission from them first.
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Mac
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, well... everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I think interpreting the law is best left to lawyers.

I've prolly said enough. Rolling Eyes

Cheers, Mac Smile

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VDSug.dll does file IO, check/disable menu items,
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Free download (30k dll size) at:
http://www.vdsworld.com/download.php?id=361
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