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VDS Future Development?
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cnodnarb
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway...cooled off a little. My classic temper kicked in!

My point is..Microsoft's aim seems to be to 'get rid of' the desktop environment altogether. To make the mouse and keyboard obsolete (except for elite folks, like developers) and to get rid of desktop computing.

I am and will always be against this.

Also, a less pointed point (from my deleted) I can see no reason to target Windows 8 store, or an app, for my efforts.

My efforts would be better spent developing a HTML5 CSS3 and Javascript website, usable on any platform. To get the 'app feel' I would just have the user pin the app, which then in Windows 8 behaves like an app.
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cnodnarb
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@pgware, regarding the resize event.

Microsoft does not support developing 'apps' at lower than 1024x768.

The immersible interface will handle any resolution graciously. Granted, this might just be the developer planning for any contingency...but I feel there was something more to it than that. I've resized it all the way down to 100x100 and across multiple monitors, it's a great piece of work.

I just feel the USER should be in control of the experience. Since the immersible interface CAN BE "unimmersed" and resized to ANY position, it should be possible by ANY user.

[edit]
The above assumes that every contingency was planned for. In Start Charming I purposely limited the position tool to administrative use only, and step by step resizing to avoid various 'pickles' a user could find themselves in. To resize the immersible interface without getting into trouble requires power level computer use or a developer to spend the time to plan for every contingency.
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bornsoft
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. What PGWare wrote sounds logical and intersting.
But my question (more pecisely) again,: Will there be a place for VDS-programs in the future and even on Windows 8?

bornSoft
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cnodnarb
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YES, VDS works very well in the Windows 8 Desktop environment.

All flavors, including 16bit 2.5 if you are 32bit Win8 and enable 16 bit support.

HOWEVER you should definitely bone up on other languages, and start transitioning a bit. I use VDS out of preference when it is appropriate. It is my favorite language, but it's not my only language. VDS does not appear to have any future beyond version 6.
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PGWARE
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making a computer easier for people should be applauded not frowned upon. Theres no clear indication that Microsoft intends to get rid of the desktop entirely, and even if they did we are talking atleast 10 years before they could fully do that. A little more than a decade ago people were still writing dos based games, who does that now? Things change and so does the technology. Just because they don't launch directly to the desktop doesn't mean they consider it legacy.

The current modern user interface will be improved upon. Using multiple applications at the same time is not complicated using the modern ui, sure its definitely not as easy as using 2 windows side by side; but this can be something they are looking at adding in. You can currently dock an app to the left/right side of the screen and open another application; what other tablet interface allows that?

Software evolves and Windows is no different, they will change things around based on user feedback and what does and does not work.

Windows 8/RT is more of a hybrid OS that does both laptop and tablet duty.

Remember that most users aren't using their computer for more than browsing the web, checking email, facebook, shopping and some light picture/video editing. These can all be achieved using simple applications that the modern ui is capable of. Computing should move toward making those peoples lives easier with an easy to use OS; otherwise companies that will make an easier to use UI will be successful and Windows will be left behind with its 'complicated classic desktop' that most people had considered frustrating. Every major OS is moving toward trying to make the interface easier to use and focusing less on desktops.

Keep coding for the desktop but start looking at picking up c# skills to work on modern ui based applications. Transitioning from vds to c# is not hard, especially if you've tried to program in Delphi , vb or other languages.
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cnodnarb
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't name one thing that very soon we will not be able to do with cache'd HTML5.

Windows 8 only advantage is backwards compatibility.

Developing for the Microsoft Store is pointless, and bias.
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Garrett
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also remember that Microsoft is more business oriented than consumer oriented and in that Windows is one of it's main business products which means it needs to have desktop abilities. Windows 8 is a hybrid product which focuses not only on the business side but the consumer side.
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cnodnarb
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK.

I've been to Wal-Mart, Sams Club, Best Buy etc.

9 out of 10 computers featuring Windows 8 DON'T even have touch screens.

The consumer/business marketing theory and the no splitting thereof can be summed up in three words: a **** up.

Especially when it looks like the OEM partners are actually taunting Microsoft by NOT producing touch screen devices.

The Windows 8 Tablet, pity if you bought one. Might as well store it with your Zune. <<-- I would take this line back if I could. To maintain context in this thread it remains.


Last edited by cnodnarb on Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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PGWARE
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Webbased apps aren't what most people want - native written applications just run much faster. Apple tried that argument with iphone 1 and eventually gave in and allowed native applications. Windows 8/RT allows html5 and javascript to run as a first class citizen locally on the device but I'd wager most developers are sticking to c# and c++. Developing rich user interfaces and coding is just easier using native code - whether that be objective-c for iOS or c# for windows. The only places I see html5 really being used and work well is for webmail and even in this instance most people prefer the mail clients in their mobile devices and many still preferring clients like outlook on their laptops and desktops; same for office documents - people want Microsoft office and not a webbased version of wordpad. But if it works for you then that's great, it will save time having to code for each platform. Really you need to see what works best for you. But you seem to like javascript - there is an option to develop native windows 8 and rt applications using html5 and javascript, then 'compiling' that code into a package to deploy in the windows store; and this isn't an afterthought - javascript and html5 are strongly supported in windows 8/rt. If you are intent on trying to avoid the windows store - you can certainly do this but you will need to maintain servers, bandwidth, any sales, etc all on your own and if your application is quite popular servers and bandwidth quickly add up; whereas deploying javascript/html5 natively will save you a lot of money in the long rung as well as provide a smoother experience for the user.


Adding a touch screen adds to cost, it should be up to the consumer to buy the device they wish to buy; and hardware makers decide which way they want to focus. You want apple like totalitarianism then go that route where one device is your only choice. There are options - computers with touchscreens and others without. This is like saying there are 9/10 cars without electric engines, when clearly there are options available if you want an electric or hybrid car. Windows 8 works just fine without a touchscreen, I use it on my desktop, MacBook air and on a Surface RT. All three of those devices allow me to choose how much of the modern ui I want to use and if I choose on desktop to avoid it altogether its pretty easy to do without any 3rd party hacks.

Developing for Windows 8/RT store makes sense; there will be 300+ million Windows 8 users by the end of this year (over 30 million pc's sold every month). Your call if you want to stay in the past. Consumers like application stores, easy to use, all your apps in one area and instantly reinstall all your apps when you upgrade to a new device. If people were really against app stores the ipad wouldn't sell as well as it does; apps are priced relatively low and are easy to install and uninstall using app stores. Sure there are costs associated with being on an app store (30% for apple and microsofts stores) but know that you don't have to maintain servers for bandwidth, you don't handle direct credit card sales and chargebacks, and the general ease to find your applications is a given in a central marketplace. You should look at leveraging your code to work both in the app store and being able to deploy to the desktop; using c# allows you to do both; by simply writing a new user interface to work in the modern ui and use the same underlying existing c# code for the desktop version of your application you have two applications - one for modern ui and one for the classic desktop; allowing options for all your users.


Try the devices first rather than making blatantly ignorant comments - ms surface, asus rt tablet and the Samsung ativ tablets all run really well. ms surface pro, Dell, hp, sony, acer, asus, lenovo all have several devices coming as well which are hybrid laptop + tablets too.


You seem to want to argue for the sake of arguing, but that simply isn't going to change Windows 8/RT or the direction Microsoft is going or the entire computing industry; simplification is where it is going. Either move along with the times or try to find another platform to develop for; there are several popular options - iOS, Android, blackberry where all of these other options have no desktop at all; or for desktops - macOS or Linux both of which have tiny user bases.

Developing for the desktop still makes sense and will for at least 10 more years, but it certainly doesn't hurt to try to look at other options and ways to deploy your code; there will be some users that want your app on ios, or android or in the windows modern ui and others that want it on the desktop. Like it or not but consumers preferences are moving to use easier to use tablet devices and mobile phones moreso than desktop/laptops - so suggesting MS should have stayed in the desktop playground is very shortsighted; windows 8 is a hybrid OS that offers both options - use a laptop when you want and when you want that device to be a tablet you simply flip the cover and use it for the limited purpose of a tablet; buy one device instead of 2.
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cnodnarb
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah. I'm done arguing. We can look back at what happened in a few years!

The only place this is going is sour ;p I still have points to be made, but it's obvious we both have our own grounded views and aren't likely to meet at a middle ground.

(I apologize for the perceived direct targeted taunt, if I knew you owned one I would not have authored that statement).
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cnodnarb
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fibbed to myself just a little. I do have one more statement.

A forum is a place to express views. Saying that someone is stating their experiences (and sometimes speculation) just to be argumentative is crap.

I may be being just a little 'bad' by making this post. But I'm not deleting it.

You're a moderator. If it needs deleted you do it.
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PGWARE
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't take things like that personally, and we all have opinions; my point of view is try things out and then form an opinion. Nothing ever will be perfect on a 1.0 release and Windows is no different - modern ui is new and needs some refinements. Service packs are likely a thing of the past for MS and they are looking at putting out faster updates with features and enhancements quicker so many of the arguments that people have against Windows 8/RT may be fixed fairly soon.
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cnodnarb
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I generally agree with that, but the philosophical stances involved in this thread are so fundamentally different that continuing sorta doesn't have a point.

You can't convince Lance Armstrong to race Nascar and vice versa for Kevin Harvick.

They simply won't be as successful if they trade places.

We are sorta in the same boat. It's in your best interest to hold the views you have, and you won't be swayed.

It's in my best interest to hold up the other side, I also won't be swayed.

Just the way it turned out Smile

By the way, HTML5 with a CACHE manifest does indeed operate with enough performance that loss is not experienced by the user. Just had to add that in ;p
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