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vdsalchemist
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 Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| SnarlingSheep wrote: | | Quote: | | border line reverse engineering |
Oh give me a break.
VDS DLLs only do something 10 other DLLs and/or languages do.
But I shouldn't do it myself because the DLL exists?
Bottom line is, if you don't like the VDS DLL market, stay out of it.
I want everyone to know this is still a discussion and I'm not trying to personally offend anyone...I hate you all equally  |
Umm SnarlingSheep,
I think your missing the point here. While most of the DLL's for VDS do infact do something that other DLL's for other languages do they are in no way competing with those DLL's since it requires the VDS DLL to be written specifically for VDS. Also most of the VDS DLL developers do pay for the right to use any components that the VDS DLL uses. DSU's compete directly with VDS DLL's other VDS DLL's compete with each other.
BTW... I will make sure I duplicate the next program be it a DLL, EXE, or DSU that you post
Oh BTW Mac,
I would not worry so much about any of us being as rich as Billy any time soon to the point that the US Government comes knocking at our doors 
I might also add that I don't see any reason to limit anyones work or even have them prove where the code comes from. I for one use code from all sorts of places. It is not so much the fact that you use code or an idea from somewhere else it's how you implement it and how you market it.
Lets say you built a paper airplane and it circles to the left no matter how you throw it. Your neighbor see's your paper airplane makes his own airplane based off of your design but with one important feature changed. His airplane will always fly forward no matter how he throws it. Did your neighbor reverse engineer your idea? Yes he did but the question is can he claim it as his. Yes he can why becase his plane is not exactly like yours. His plane flys forward. Now the ethical question. Shouldn't he at least say that his plane is based off of your design?
Food For Thought...
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vdsalchemist
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| FreezingFire wrote: | | Perhaps once the "DSU Market" stabilizes:) |
What "DSU Market"? I only know of maybe 1 that is not free. I would not call it a market unless you charge for them
Also PK is exactly right it would take a heck of alot of work to make a DSU do the things that are much easier to do with a DLL. Also DSU's are no where near as fast as a well written VDS DLL.
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FreezingFire
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Mindpower, just because someone wrote a program doesn't mean that
other people can't make something that did the same. For example,
do you see more than one popup-blocker? Because someone wrote the
first popup blocker doesn't mean that other can't use the idea.
You have to remember that copyrights only protect code, patents protect
ideas.
Plus, if there is a DLL that has a bug in the function you are trying to use,
and the author is unreachable or doesn't fix the bug, are you saying we
can't write our own DLL or DSU to achieve the same thing?
I never seriously stated there was a DSU market, that's why I put it in
quotes.  I simply meant, as VDS progresses, DSUs and other forms of
extensions will come about, some might even be more popular than
traditional DLLs.
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vdsalchemist
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| FreezingFire wrote: | Mindpower, just because someone wrote a program doesn't mean that
other people can't make something that did the same. For example,
do you see more than one popup-blocker? Because someone wrote the
first popup blocker doesn't mean that other can't use the idea.
You have to remember that copyrights only protect code, patents protect
ideas.
Plus, if there is a DLL that has a bug in the function you are trying to use,
and the author is unreachable or doesn't fix the bug, are you saying we
can't write our own DLL or DSU to achieve the same thing?
I never seriously stated there was a DSU market, that's why I put it in
quotes. I simply meant, as VDS progresses, DSUs and other forms of
extensions will come about, some might even be more popular than
traditional DLLs. |
Oh I agree with you FF. I am not saying that a person cannot make a product that performs a similar function just don't make it exactly the same. Also patents in the US do not protect ideas. Patents are for physical devices and you must have a prototype in order to get a patent. I am not a lawyer. I am just a person that is trying to look out for my own little piece of the world. As for replacing a mal-functioning DLL yes I see your point but I am not aware of any DLL that is being sold that you cannot contact the owner and have them fix it? Even if I were to write something in VDS to replace the mal-functioning DLL I would still give credit to the author of the DLL for coming up with the idea. Also I would even go as far as to say if the author fixes the DLL I would gladly take down my code. All I am saying is don't take an idea without at least asking or showing some kind of respect.
To the rest on this forum,
To hear the rest of you speak you think that all VDS DLL's should be free and for that matter you prob. think that VDS itself should be free. That's just nonsense and wishful thinking. The only program that I know of that has survived as a free program and still has interest enough to keep going is "dare I say it... Linux" but that is only due to it being sponsored by very large companies. Beyond that I see programs that are free come and go and most of them have very bad support if they have any support at all. I contribute this to the fact that while it seems noble to give away your abilities for nothing it is in fact not that noble when you cannot support your product because you cannot afford to do so.
Look I am not trying to argue with anyone but if your not going to support the developers that are trying to do things the right way then why are you here? Why bother? Well if you don't need it then by all means don't buy it but if you need it purchase it; support it, but don't contribute to the demise of it.
I disagree with several products that are being praised by this forum for the simple reason that I know why the authors made the products to begin with. It was not to help the VDS community they did this just because they wanted something for nothing and to get back at the original authors. No matter what their justification for this is 'wrong is wrong'. I will never support a product that was made to intentially harm others either physically, financially or any other way for that matter. I know there are many here that feel the way I do because I have spoke to them about this many times before. You know if it came right down to it sure I could make a language identical to VDS in every way so why don't I do that? Because bottom line it would not be the right thing to do.
You know I would rather have my software hacked then to have someone take my idea and then give it away. At least the hackers would appreciate my software and actually use it.
I have already said too much so I will shutup now. You guys do what you want. I just don't like to see others get hurt and to be treated with so little respect is all.
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FreezingFire
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Mindpower I agree. I would never want to see a clone of VDS given away
or sold at a low price. I'm glad that's not going to happen. This I will say
is unacceptable to copy VDS.
I would find any DLL or include that replicated any DLL or other include to
be unacceptable. I think you don't understand. I'm arguing
that we should have the right to make code that might be a function in
a DLL, but I don't think that we should make code that copies an entire
DLL.
Do you get what I mean?
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PGWARE
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Making similar dll's is not such a real problem. But the fact is there have been cases where on THIS SITE people have downloaded other people's dll's/code for the sake of trying to copy them exactly whether in dsu form or dll form.
The purpose was to download the dll/code replicate it as much as possible, slightly change the syntax then undercut the original author by giving out the code/product for free.
It's fine to make a similar product but to go and download the original product, then mimic and copy it, then later distribute is a clear case of reverse engineering. If you don't call that reverse engineering then I think your just intentionally trying to be blinded to the truth. |
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FreezingFire
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with you PGWARE.
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Mac
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| PGWARE wrote: | | It's fine to make a similar product but to go and download the original product, then mimic and copy it, then later distribute is a clear case of reverse engineering. If you don't call that reverse engineering then I think your just intentionally trying to be blinded to the truth. |
LOL, anyone here running AMD CPUs? That's exactly
how they made theirs run the same code as Intel.
Cheers, Mac
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FreezingFire
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Not exactly - I don't believe AMD would reverse engineer Intel's CPU and
then still be selling it. There's all sorts of specifications regarding the way
PC CPUs should work - that's why there's several companies making CPUs
that run PC code. 
Anyway I think hardware is much a different story than DLLs here at VDSWORLD.
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Serge
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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pg wrote
| Quote: |
Making similar dll's is not such a real problem. But the fact is there have been cases where on THIS SITE people have downloaded other people's dll's/code for the sake of trying to copy them exactly whether in dsu form or dll form.
The purpose was to download the dll/code replicate it as much as possible, slightly change the syntax then undercut the original author by giving out the code/product for free.
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i never knew about that and i will never knowingly support such activity...could such people be privately warned that their activity is not appropriate at this forum with the threat of expulsion if they don't stop? surely, developers should feel that the forum is a safe place for them to post their dll/dsu contributions (be they free or not)
mindpower wrote
| Quote: | To the rest on this forum,
To hear the rest of you speak you think that all VDS DLL's should be free and for that matter you prob. think that VDS itself should be free.
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that is also news to me mindpower and i'm not sure if i should take offence to that...depends who is included in the "to the rest of this forum"...i myself have bought 2 dll's (blowfish and vdsobj) because i needed them and they were well priced at the time...i thoroughly appreciate the work that both authors have put into these dll's as i find it very useful for the programs i write and pg's support of his dll has been fantastic to say the least...i don't have a problem with buying a dll as long as it is well priced (but that is a separate issue)
serge
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Mac
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| FreezingFire wrote: | Not exactly - I don't believe AMD would reverse engineer Intel's CPU and
then still be selling it. There's all sorts of specifications regarding the way
PC CPUs should work - that's why there's several companies making CPUs
that run PC code.
Anyway I think hardware is much a different story than DLLs here at VDSWORLD. |
Actually that is the way they originally did it, because Intel
kept all the specifications a closely guarded secret.
My point is - the court ruled it is NOT reverse engineering to
mimic the properties of other products. If it were, we'd all be
driving only one kind of automobile and using only one CPU.
Software is the same principle - you copyright the code and
the finished product, NOT the idea (and mindpower is correct,
you can't patent an idea either).
To make this a little clearer - AMD did NOT take an Intel chip
apart and make one just like it. They tested it, seen what
it did with code and then designed theirs to achieve the same
results.
Cheers, Mac
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VDSug.dll does file IO, check/disable menu items,
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Free download (30k dll size) at:
http://www.vdsworld.com/download.php?id=361
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FreezingFire
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Let's not entirely change the subject to arguing about processors - the
fact is, nobody here who cares about the future of VDS (and most people
here are devoted VDS programmers) would support a product if they
knew could lead to the downfall of VDS or the demise of a VDS DLL
because someone made a clone or very closely alike replica and undercut
the author of the original product.
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Serge
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:24 am Post subject: |
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well said ff 
serge
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Mac
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:50 am Post subject: |
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My point wasn't meant to be about processors (or cars even ).
I'm simply pointing out how everyone complaining about
"clone" DLLs also use "clones" of some type themselves.
FF, you mentioned "popup blockers"....
| FreezingFire wrote: |
just because someone wrote a program doesn't mean that
other people can't make something that did the same. For example,
do you see more than one popup-blocker? Because someone wrote
the first popup blocker doesn't mean that other can't use the idea.
|
Is there a reason this principle shouldn't apply to all?
BTW - I understand it doesn't make software developers happy,
but it certainly is NOT reverse engineering (no offence PK ),
any more than a Chevy is a reversed engineered Ford.
Have no DLL developers here ever sold apps that mimic other
programs?
Cheers, Mac
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VDSug.dll does file IO, check/disable menu items,
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Free download (30k dll size) at:
http://www.vdsworld.com/download.php?id=361
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FreezingFire
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Mac, when I was talking about popup-blockers, I was talking about similiar
applications (using the same kind of idea), not cloning VDS DLLs or VDS
itself for that matter.
I don't know what is so hard to accept about the fact that we need to
support VDS, not undermine it. 
Also, indeed "reverse engineering" is copying something, but changing just
a few things to avoid copyright infringement:
| Quote: | Reverse engineering (RE) is the process of taking something (a device, an electrical component, a software program, etc.) apart and analyzing its workings in detail, and after that to reconstruct a new device/program/etc. that does the same thing
....
Reverse-engineering is commonly done to avoid copyrights on desired functionality, and may be used for avoiding patent law, though this is a bit risky... |
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